?

Log in

No account? Create an account

Stories?

« previous entry | next entry »
Mar. 31st, 2007 | 12:00 pm

jeffwik pointed me to this Forge thread on storytelling games, brain-damage, and whatnot. How very odd. I kept reading, because that's the kind of freak I am, and I just kept thinking that the whole thing was pointless for reasons other than the ones constantly stated. I mean, the whole brain damage thing was nonsense, and I have no brief for sociobiology in any of its ridiculous forms (not that it can't be well done, but it's certainly rare and this isn't a good example). But the whole thing starts with a false premise.

Here's Ron near the opening:
I'm going to start with a claim that a human being can routinely understand, enjoy, and (with some practice) create stories. I think most postmodernism is arrant garbage, so I'll say that a story is a fictional series of events which present a conflict and a resolution, with the emergent/resulting audience experience of "theme." I also think that stories concern a fairly limited range of possible conflicts, but the angles one might use for presentation, and the interactions among the range, make for quite a stunning array of individual examples or expressions of them.

Again, my claim is that this is a human capacity which is swiftly learned and shaped into a personal characteristic ("what stories I like") as a basic feature of the human experience, used as a constant means of touchpoints during communication, along the whole spectrum of polite conversation to icebreaking all the way to the most intimate or critical of conversations. I am completely unconvinced by the suggestion that what we call a "story" today is a local historical artifact, or that people in past epochs or in different cultures had or have utterly different fundamentals for stories.

(Related point: as far as I can tell, there is no meaningful "cultural gap" regarding stories. Differences in content and presentation which seem jarring at first contact are swiftly overcome with further contact. This is common. People refuse to do this, when they do, not because the foreign story makes no sense, but because they are invested in not paying attention for any number of reasons.)
A little later he makes a very funny (unintentionally) remark about how he likes deconstruction as an activity, blah blah, because he doesn't believe in authorial intent. Very nice. He thinks, of course, that this makes him radical but not someone who "buys in" on his postmodern academic models, and so on. But in fact, what shows here is not only misunderstanding of deconstruction -- a very minor point, although I wish people wouldn't pronounce gleefully and glibly about things they know nothing about -- but also his misunderstanding of what "postmodern" or whatever is all about. And that is, perhaps surprisingly, relevant here.

Based on Ron's statements here (the long block-quote, I mean), he thinks that it is relatively obvious what a "story" is, as a cross-cultural an in fact human-universal phenomenon. Furthermore, he thinks that the people who don't agree with him within the academy are a bunch of postmodern idiotic navel-gazers, presenting "arrant garbage." Based on other remarks here and elsewhere, the point seems relatively clear: in the heavy theoretical-turn postmodern whatnot movements of the 70s and 80s, the whole concept of "story" got undermined by people who mostly wanted to yap. At base, a story is a story, and throwing jargon at it doesn't make it not a story, or doesn't make us not know what a story is.

I'll set aside this blanket rejection of things like narratology. I will only note in passing that there is a blanket assumption that nothing that has been done by all those scholars interested in such subjects for the last 35 years or so has been of any value. How one could know that without very extensive critical reading and analysis is beyond me, but I'll let it go.

What's interesting, though, is that the undermining of "story" as a straightforward and relatively obvious human behavior and genre was not undermined by a bunch of pomo theory-heads. It was undermined in the first flushes of structural and morphological critique, going back to people like Vladimir Propp. Actually, when it gets down to it, the recognition that there are fundamental problems with the category "story" as a cultural universal predates Propp quite a bit: it is because the problem was recognized that Propp et al. started working on it.

The problem first cropped up with serious engagement with mythology, and attempts to define myth as a cross-cultural phenomenon. And that takes us back to, wait for it, the 19th century. Andrew Lang would be one of the biggest names here, but in fact Sir James Frazer and Edward Tylor and those guys all got into this problem.

Basically the point has been known and accepted in mainstream scholarship, primarily in the cross-cultural study of culture (e.g. sociology, anthropology, religious studies), for more than a century. To put it simply, these basic factors that allow Ron to define and recognize a story as a cross-cultural human universal phenomenon are not present in every case, or indeed perhaps in most. What Ron (and most others not involved in the study of culture, to be fair) takes to be universal is solidly proven not to be so. "Story" in the sense he means it is not, of course, an entirely modern, Western phenomenon; it has parallels in many other cultures and times. But it is not universal, or anything like.

(That's the end of the actual content material here; the rest is analysis of where Ron's argument should actually have led.)

So this whole argument, from my point of view, falls into what Ron likes to call "undergraduate debate." That's exactly what this is: you have a guy who thinks a lot of himself pronouncing glibly on story and brain and whatnot, but who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about in terms of the most basic first principles. If we take his argument seriously, we have to say that many of the cultures of South America, for example, are intrinsically brain-damaged, and not because they played WW games. Of course, from their point of view most of our stories aren't stories, or at the very least aren't any good as stories, for lots of reasons that don't even enter Ron's sphere of definition. The criteria are simply not as straightforward as he thinks, and they do in fact vary.

I suppose this makes me one of those postmodern purveyors of "arrant garbage." Well, so long as "postmodern" dates back to the mid-late 19th century, and so long as pretty much every piece of responsible scholarship on myth, ritual, religion, and culture is accepted as "arrant garbage," yeah, I guess I'll accept that. But it's a sad state of affairs when people take such a claim seriously because the guy touting it is a biologist, for Pete's sake.

Stripped to essentials, the argument is this:
  1. Here is a definition of Story
  2. Some games that claim to emphasize story do not follow this definition
  3. Some gamers who have played the games in question appear to have trouble shifting definitions
  4. Such gamers have been very strongly trained to think about story based on definitions other than the one posed
  5. In some cases, they may actually be unable to change definitions
  6. For this reason, they may well not "get" Story Now games
  7. That's sad
Oh. And? If it weren't for the inflammatory rhetoric and the fact that it's Ron saying this, why would anyone respond? What's to respond to? It's a statement of opinion: Ron thinks this is sad. He calls it brain damage, for whatever weird reason, but what he's talking about is enculturation and training. He thinks that some games, notably WW games, train people to think about stories in a way he doesn't think is helpful, and that (1) makes their games suck and (2) keeps them from playing games that tell stories in a way he does think is helpful.

From this there are two basic responses worth making. On point (1), there are people whose games don't suck, for whom the whole argument is laughable. And for those whose games do suck, the question is simply how to re-train them so they will "get" games like Sorcerer. So we've stripped down to essentials:
There is a group, of unknown size, of gamers who fit the following criteria:
  1. They have played a bunch of WW-type games
  2. They think their games suck
  3. They think they want storytelling
  4. They have trouble with games like Sorcerer
  5. The reason for this trouble is that they think about "story" in a WW-type way
Therefore
We need a training regimen to help these people rethink story and play
Okay. So write a new introduction to Sorcerer entitled "surviving 'storytelling' play," in which you explain how "story" here means something different, and how that means play is going to be different, and how and why you think this will be more satisfactory than WW has been. The assumption is that those people who actually like WW games won't be reading it because they don't have any reason to do so. You have some GM who's trying to help these unhappy players, and that GM encourages them to read this intro before designing a character or starting to play.

Has Ron actually written such a thing? Why not?

Link | Leave a comment |

Comments {42}

Raven Daegmorgan

(no subject)

from: greyorm
date: Mar. 31st, 2007 08:13 pm (UTC)
Link

What I took away from Ron's post was something I've seen and been aggravated with for years, and confirmed both by experience and other writing teachers/editors I have spoken with over the years: gamers, in general, make bad fiction writers and require significant retraining (or untraining) -- because they carry around a set of assumptions about what makes a story and use those as a premise to write from, producing very bad fiction.

Notably, the pattern of assumptions/techniques in question are specific to gamers as a group; that is, you might see one or two of them pop up here and there in the general writing population, but the pattern is specific to gamers.

So, for me, based on my experience, Ron was spot-on with his critique about certain traditional forms of gaming causing brain damage/enculturation/whateveryouchoosetocallit regarding the ability to create and tell stories, and even learning how to do so.

Reply | Thread

Talysman the Ur-Beatle

(no subject)

from: urbeatle
date: Mar. 31st, 2007 10:38 pm (UTC)
Link

See, my response to this (as it was then,) is: how many of these gamers who write bad fiction were good fiction writers prior to gaming? You can't prove that gaming causes brain damage unless you can show the absence of damage prior to gaming.

I argue the opposite of Ron. I think the "damage" existed to begin with. What gaming does to these bad writers is convince them that they can write, making them more obvious than bad writers who never try to write. Ron is looking at all the trees along the roadway and coming to the conclusion that asphalt produces trees, instead of considering that maybe he's driving through a forest.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Raven Daegmorgan

(no subject)

from: greyorm
date: Apr. 1st, 2007 12:48 am (UTC)
Link

The evidence exists in the comparison with the general population: gamers, as a general group, have a pattern of assumptions/techniques that hinder their ability to write well and to learn to write well (by which I mean there is a level of untraining involved in the process not needed for those without gaming backgrounds) that can be traced back to gaming, and which the general population does not exhibit or share.

Because I have that large, general base group to compare against -- note: both good and bad novice writers who don't game -- I don't need to prove the absence of "damage" (or as Chris puts it, "enculturation" (the effects of), which is more technically accurate anyways) prior to gaming.

If this were caused by something other than gaming, then these patterns would also occur in non-gamer bad writers, and would also only occur in bad writers. They don't.

To be absolutely clear: as a general rule, both good and bad writers who were or are gamers display this particular pattern of assumptions and techniques. It isn't just something you see in bad writers who are gamers, or something displayed by any bad writer; it is particular and specific to gamers as a general group, regardless of (eventual or existing) proficiency and talent.

To prove your point, and disprove mine, you are going to have to make the argument that people who have done screen-writing for the last ten-to-twenty years and then try prose were just born with their specific writing patterns, rather than enculturated to them by a decade or more of use, and that only failed/bad screen-writers are attracted to writing prose.

Obviously, that's nonsense. What I argue about gaming affecting writing habits is just the same thing: you have to untrain screenwriters from using specific and particular-to-their-group writing-habits and thought-patterns, just like you have to untrain gamers from the same specific to their group.

(I also note your counter-argument could easily be viewed in a light hardly better than Ron's argument: "Gamers are attracted to the activity because there is something wrong with them to start with and choose gaming because of their mutual disability."

But since Ron didn't say it, the gaming corner of the internet won't collectively shit itself while trying to paint you as the evilest evil that ever oozed out from under its gaming rock. You luck out. Gain +1 to teh intarwebs skillz!)

Reply | Parent | Thread

Talysman the Ur-Beatle

(no subject)

from: urbeatle
date: Apr. 1st, 2007 01:58 am (UTC)
Link

Let's clarify something first. Are you talking about bad writing style? Because that sure doesn't fit the example Ron gave. I'd like to see a list of these assumptionons/techniques thata re common to gamers and uncommon among non-gamers, but if they're purely about style, I don't think they're relevant. Ron's example clearly specified an inability to understand or retell a good story and seems to be suggesting one or more of the following:
  • difficulty in abstracting meaning (concrete thinking,)
  • difficulty in abstracting causes (following a plot,)
  • difficulty in recognizing emotional tone (empathy.)

These are things psychiatrists and psychologists actually test for, and can be the result of brain damage or resemble it. Focusing on these, I can interpret Ron's cry of "Brain Damage!" as possible hyperbole and move on to whether I agree with his conclusions. If he wasn't talking about these, I don't see how anyone could even carry on the discussion. We're not clear what is being discussed.

Does a large body of non-gamers without the same symptoms prove that gaming causes the symptoms? Hell, no. At best, it would indicate a need for study, especially if there were no gamers without the symptoms and no non-gamers with the symptoms. To me, saying "gaming causes this dysfunction" means you've observed a change in people after they started to game. If not by direct observation, by comparing something they'd written prior to becoming a gamer and looking for signs of a loss of abstraction or empathy. Which, incidentally, is why your screenwriter analogy doesn't wash; plenty of screenwriters have samples of their pre-screenwriting work, even if it's nothing more than gradeschool homework or an essay submitted with their college application, so we know their writing style changed. Where's the equivalent proof for gaming?

Reply | Parent | Thread

Raven Daegmorgan

(no subject)

from: greyorm
date: Apr. 1st, 2007 03:10 am (UTC)
Link

What you see Ron's argument saying is not what I saw Ron's argument saying. See above. But I'm really so tired of everyone and their mother deciding "What Ron really said..." given the ridiculous lengths some folks go to regarding what Ron (or whomever; ref: see American politics) "really meant" when he said. Especially when it is for the most part really transparent social-politics.

So, flatly: I'm not Ron, I don't know what he was thinking specifically. You can talk to him about the pscyhology/brain damage stuff if you want to discuss that aspect of it. Not being psychic and not incredibly interested in politically-motivated discussions, I'm talking about what I'm talking about.

The statement I was making: gaming, like any activity, conditions its practioners to see and think about the world in particular ways, changing the way the person interacts with aspects of the world.

Do you disagree with that statement?

If so, why is gaming exempt given we have similar observed and well-documented situations that causes generally similar effects: where conditioning causes changes in perception, forms subconscious assumptions, and creates thought patterns in a subject? And how then do you explain the gamer-effect among novice writers?

Reply | Parent | Thread

Talysman the Ur-Beatle

(no subject)

from: urbeatle
date: Apr. 1st, 2007 03:30 am (UTC)
Link

If we're not talking about what Ron was talking about, then I can't answer your questions at all, because at least Ron provided an example. What are *you* talking about? Are you talking about stylistic assumptions and techniques, or something else? And what are the percentages for people displaying those behaviors among gamers and non-gamers?

Reply | Parent | Thread

Raven Daegmorgan

(no subject)

from: greyorm
date: Apr. 1st, 2007 05:52 am (UTC)
Link

I'm talking about exactly what I said I was talking about in the first post; bit strange that you'd pick this point in the conversation to notice the divergence, but alright.

I'm not talking about style, whatever that means this week (that is, I'd just like to avoid the word as too generally meaningless); I'm talking about techniques and assumptions, such as those which go into the inclusion and exclusion of particular data in a story, and the manner of and reason for presentation of said data.

To be clear, the writing assumptions/techniques of an untrained or novice writer-gamer are not uncommon among novice (non-gamer) writers in and of themselves, but the pattern of their use and the specific ones the novice writer-gamer chooses are. They are specific to the hobby of gaming, which is why they pop out, even to someone who doesn't game.

The reason it pops is that it is like a person who plays video games writing stories based on the way video games play out, or (to beat a dead horse) the way a long-time screenwriter writes prose (when a novice) pops out as being prose written by a screenwriter.

For gamers, these are things like: passive description, front-loading character descriptions including details of equipment, encyclopedia-worthy passages on minor (colorful) setting details, failing to write character personality and letting the story be about "the plot", or ignoring character personality in favor of "the plot", the plot itself having no real tie to the character, events being about plot rather than character (ie: characters exist mainly as eyewitnesses to stuff happening that doesn't or shouldn't reasonably need to involve or interest or engage them), identifiable game-character archetypes (at best "with serial numbers filed off"), other similar game-related artifacts, excessive but unimportant inter-party drama (and you'll note the concept of a "party") usually via dialogue, lengthy historical treatises on irrelevancies, extensive viewpoint jumping, sudden changes in voice, failing to connect the reader to the character (or failing to connect to the character as a writer), creating pseudo-mystery instead of tension, extensive detail of each move in and focus on combat scenes, loosely-/un-related spastic action and events (ie: "wouldn't it be cool if..." writing that pays no attention to engaging the reader in the long term, or over a period of time), etc. etc.

cont...

Reply | Parent | Thread

Raven Daegmorgan

(no subject)

from: greyorm
date: Apr. 1st, 2007 05:52 am (UTC)
Link

cont.. from above

I know that's a mess, sorry. Hopefully you get the idea: you'll note these are all things you can find specifically as a part of play/assumptions of what play is (or should be) like in much traditional gaming. They are all things the gamer has been trained to do by gaming, and which make for bad writing technique and a bad base of "shoulds" to try to know what to write from and how to write it.

Again, yes, other novice writers do many/all of the above, too -- the difference is novice writer-gamers do them as a package deal. Hrm, no. Better stated (because not all of the above may be utilized), they write using an identifiable pattern. The short (inaccurate-but-useful) description is "They write D&D" or "They write a wordy, fantasized version of a role-playing session".

Now, gaming fiction can be done well, but it involves unlearning a lot of gaming assumptions about what is told and how it is told. It also involves having a decent story to begin with, something a lot of novice writer-gamers struggle with in a very interesting manner.

It isn't that they are stumped what to do, it is that they have adventure plots that are good, fundamentally, but in practice really don't do anything, or require so much pointless slogging around to get anywhere of interest that you want to cry...or you would if you hadn't put it down fifty pages ago. Like a lot of gaming. They'll push stories hoping the characters will blunder into the magic space that makes the story finally happen instead of trying to rework the characters or the plot to fit one another. They fail to connect the characters to the plot in a reasonable and compelling way, and the idea suffers in its execution due to the game-related assumptions the writer is trying to drive with.

But now I am starting to get into specifics, and I'm not yet ready to write the book (or essay) on it. I also don't have specific percentages. This is a bunch of editors and writing teachers exchanging informative anecdotes and similar observations over the course of years, not a laboratory study with clipboards and spreadsheets. But that has worked for us just fine for years in exchanging teaching techniques and typing students so we can deal with their specific problems more successfully.

Hopefully, however, all that answers your questions regarding the subject I'm discussing?

Reply | Parent | Thread

Talysman the Ur-Beatle

(no subject)

from: urbeatle
date: Apr. 2nd, 2007 06:21 pm (UTC)
Link

Thanks for providing that, Raven.

As I said, I don't think style issues are really relevant, because it kind of blows the whole argument, or at least its tone of Great Danger Caused By Gaming. If you're talking about style, you're talking about one group judging another by its own guidelines. Now, I happen to agree that the stylistic elements you list are dangerous to effective stories and prefer stories that do the opposite. However, I've read enough older stuff to know that your aesthetics (and mine) weren't always the case. Except for three specific things you mentioned, the stylistic flaws as a package occur in enormous numbers of older stories. Some of those flaws, like front-loaded equipment descriptions and cataloging irrelevant scene details, were once the norm rather than the exception (I'm thinking of practically every Arthurian romance, especially Gawain and the Green Knight. It was common enough that Chaucer parodied it in "Sir Thopas".)

There are three specific style elements you mentioned that I think can rightly be blamed on gaming: focus on game-related archetypes, artifacts, and the "adventure party". There are possible antecedents for all three outside of gaming, but I can see that you would expect this more from gamers than non-gamers. But I'm not convinced that this is a huge problem. I don't think there are that many bad gamer writers writing thinly-disguised dungeon crawls outside of game-related publications, so I mainly think of this as being a symptom of something else: writers who are unable to stray too far from whatever it is they are emulating. I think *this* occurs outside of gaming, too, in a different form, and it's just more obvious when they are emulating gaming instead of some other entertainment obsession. And I don't think this is really common.

Reply | Parent | Thread | Expand

M

(no subject)

from: eyebeams
date: Apr. 5th, 2007 06:12 am (UTC)
Link

The evidence exists in the comparison with the general population: gamers, as a general group, have a pattern of assumptions/techniques that hinder their ability to write well and to learn to write well (by which I mean there is a level of untraining involved in the process not needed for those without gaming backgrounds) that can be traced back to gaming, and which the general population does not exhibit or share.

Nobody has any information worthy of respect about what gamers are like outside of demographic consumer data. Some people have merely privileged anecdotal information in a blatantly self-serving fashion. You do not have a large group for comparison to which you have applied any form of methodical evaluation, so your claims of evidence are, at best naive, and at worst self-servingly dishonest.

I do admit that this, along with your balls out demand that people prove a negative, are notable for being rather bold in their fearless lack of intellectual scruples. But the truth is that you really do need to prove an effect, rather than simply say it exists and defy others to prove otherwise. This could be obtained by coming up with some sort of bullshit story-skill criteria and putting folks through it. This would get you halfway there, until the bullshit criteria became a problem. The alternate route lies with compelling case studies, in which case you have to explain away the very large number of successful authors who used to play RPGs you don't approve of.

Ron's argument is a straightforward evolutionary psychology just-so story. That, at least is a coherent argument, though the lack of proof chiefly makes it an ideological bulwark. Of course, the mating of evolutionary psychology and neural Darwinism creates some extremely stupid side effects that I will explain elsewhere.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Raven Daegmorgan

(no subject)

from: greyorm
date: Apr. 5th, 2007 09:03 am (UTC)
Link

You might want to take the time to carefully read something over and think about the details presented before getting all het-up and explode your head all over someone's LJ in an otherwise polite discussion you either haven't read thoroughly or haven't grasped the actualities of.

I say that because you argue a major flaw in my reasoning is that "...you have to explain away the very large number of successful authors who used to play RPGs you don't approve of", as though I did not do so or that such was not considered or taken into account.

As you'll see if you reread the statements made, the argument already accounts for proficient writer-gamers who don't display (or never displayed) the particular pattern discussed, via use of the group identifier NOVICE writer-gamers (not ALL writer-gamers) and in the use of the statement AS A GENERAL GROUP (not ALL GAMERS).

Those are very important details you have glossed over in writing up your personal attack critque, resulting in your having attempted to discredit a non-existant assertion, and to discuss an idea completely outside of any I have put forward (as well as one I agree would be thoughtlessly and uselessly generalized).

There is also the claim on your part that my idea has something to do with "RPGs I don't approve of." I don't know what RPGs those might be, as I never stated that I disapproved of any specific RPGs, or indicated the merits of such were nonexistant. Again, you are arguing against an assertion and attendant ideas that do not exist in the argument presented here, except by your own inference and desire.

I have a suspicion your reaction has nothing to do with the idea presented, however, given these above strawmen. From my outside perspective, the content of your arguments and choice of responses seems to indicate more simply unleashing verbal and emotional bile in public, perhaps as a defense of some sort of personal "holy ground" (or so to speak) you feel has been violated by a suggestion there could be a potential "negative" associated with gaming.

(If one were going to be snarky, one might even argue your interpretation and choice of readings was "self-servingly dishonest" and such behavior was "lacking in intellectual scruples", but then we're just name-calling and pretending it has any real intellectual merit or nets productive communication in a discussion.)

Regardless of the source, if it makes you feel better to ignore pertinent details and insert strawmen so you can rage against what you think you see -- and flame like you're about to be banned from RPG.net -- please do it somewhere not around me.

I am simply not interested in watching anyone defend emotional territory, or in discussion or communication based on knee-jerk reactions to uncarefully read material, or in being trolled as you have chosen to do here, and I will not have any further time to respond to that sort of behavior. (I also doubt Chris cares for such in his journal.)

Thanks.

Reply | Parent | Thread

M

(no subject)

from: eyebeams
date: Apr. 6th, 2007 02:10 am (UTC)
Link

I treat you like a shitheel because in all of our exchanges, you have behaved like a shitheel. You have even acted like a shitheel towards me when I haven't even been around, like when you called me a sociopath over at Fang Langford's and expressed horror at the thought I might participate in a community he was only *thinking* of forming.

You have behaved like a shitheel to such an extent that other Forge folks have apologized for your shitheeltastic participation. I suppose my main mistake was interfering when you were determined to be a shitheel to someone else, as well.

See the difference between you and Ron is that when I do interact with him directly, he is formally polite -- such as on the occasion when he apologized for you being a shitheel over on the Forge. You don't seem to be able to extend courtesy to anyone you disagree with and thus, you choose my response.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Raven Daegmorgan

(no subject)

from: greyorm
date: Apr. 6th, 2007 04:52 am (UTC)
Link

I was not aware I was insulting someone I disagreed with here. Who, specifically? Chris? Tal? Did you feel attacked? Was I a "shitheel"? If I was, let me know.

If I am never be polite to someone I disagree with, I'm not sure how I explain my response to you above, then, or this thread.

I will agree that you and I don't much like each other based on our history and mutually negative view of one another, but when you come in here with guns blazing invective, purportedly in order to defend someone from my vicious and discourteous responses, you might want to think how poorly that reflects on you and how much of your statement above applies to yourself as well.

And no, I absolutely do not take responsibility for your choice of behavior: I don't choose your response for you, you do. Especially when your own behavior has resulted in you being banned from places it used to be pretty hard to get banned from -- I just wouldn't go around throwing stones while living in that glass house.

Ultimately, if you have a problem with me personally, take it to e-mail. I'm perfectly willing to either work it out or curse and swear at one another some more (well, no, not really the latter one).

Reply | Parent | Thread | Expand

clehrich

(no subject)

from: clehrich
date: Apr. 5th, 2007 12:58 pm (UTC)
Link

Can we cool it on the rhetoric a bit? I'd like to keep attacks and arguments focused on claims and arguments, rather than on people, where possible.

Reply | Parent | Thread

M

(no subject)

from: eyebeams
date: Apr. 6th, 2007 02:11 am (UTC)
Link

S'Okay. I'm done talking to him.

Reply | Parent | Thread