clehrich ([info]clehrich) wrote,
@ 2007-03-31 12:00:00
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Stories?
[info]jeffwik pointed me to this Forge thread on storytelling games, brain-damage, and whatnot. How very odd. I kept reading, because that's the kind of freak I am, and I just kept thinking that the whole thing was pointless for reasons other than the ones constantly stated. I mean, the whole brain damage thing was nonsense, and I have no brief for sociobiology in any of its ridiculous forms (not that it can't be well done, but it's certainly rare and this isn't a good example). But the whole thing starts with a false premise.

Here's Ron near the opening:
I'm going to start with a claim that a human being can routinely understand, enjoy, and (with some practice) create stories. I think most postmodernism is arrant garbage, so I'll say that a story is a fictional series of events which present a conflict and a resolution, with the emergent/resulting audience experience of "theme." I also think that stories concern a fairly limited range of possible conflicts, but the angles one might use for presentation, and the interactions among the range, make for quite a stunning array of individual examples or expressions of them.

Again, my claim is that this is a human capacity which is swiftly learned and shaped into a personal characteristic ("what stories I like") as a basic feature of the human experience, used as a constant means of touchpoints during communication, along the whole spectrum of polite conversation to icebreaking all the way to the most intimate or critical of conversations. I am completely unconvinced by the suggestion that what we call a "story" today is a local historical artifact, or that people in past epochs or in different cultures had or have utterly different fundamentals for stories.

(Related point: as far as I can tell, there is no meaningful "cultural gap" regarding stories. Differences in content and presentation which seem jarring at first contact are swiftly overcome with further contact. This is common. People refuse to do this, when they do, not because the foreign story makes no sense, but because they are invested in not paying attention for any number of reasons.)
A little later he makes a very funny (unintentionally) remark about how he likes deconstruction as an activity, blah blah, because he doesn't believe in authorial intent. Very nice. He thinks, of course, that this makes him radical but not someone who "buys in" on his postmodern academic models, and so on. But in fact, what shows here is not only misunderstanding of deconstruction -- a very minor point, although I wish people wouldn't pronounce gleefully and glibly about things they know nothing about -- but also his misunderstanding of what "postmodern" or whatever is all about. And that is, perhaps surprisingly, relevant here.

Based on Ron's statements here (the long block-quote, I mean), he thinks that it is relatively obvious what a "story" is, as a cross-cultural an in fact human-universal phenomenon. Furthermore, he thinks that the people who don't agree with him within the academy are a bunch of postmodern idiotic navel-gazers, presenting "arrant garbage." Based on other remarks here and elsewhere, the point seems relatively clear: in the heavy theoretical-turn postmodern whatnot movements of the 70s and 80s, the whole concept of "story" got undermined by people who mostly wanted to yap. At base, a story is a story, and throwing jargon at it doesn't make it not a story, or doesn't make us not know what a story is.

I'll set aside this blanket rejection of things like narratology. I will only note in passing that there is a blanket assumption that nothing that has been done by all those scholars interested in such subjects for the last 35 years or so has been of any value. How one could know that without very extensive critical reading and analysis is beyond me, but I'll let it go.

What's interesting, though, is that the undermining of "story" as a straightforward and relatively obvious human behavior and genre was not undermined by a bunch of pomo theory-heads. It was undermined in the first flushes of structural and morphological critique, going back to people like Vladimir Propp. Actually, when it gets down to it, the recognition that there are fundamental problems with the category "story" as a cultural universal predates Propp quite a bit: it is because the problem was recognized that Propp et al. started working on it.

The problem first cropped up with serious engagement with mythology, and attempts to define myth as a cross-cultural phenomenon. And that takes us back to, wait for it, the 19th century. Andrew Lang would be one of the biggest names here, but in fact Sir James Frazer and Edward Tylor and those guys all got into this problem.

Basically the point has been known and accepted in mainstream scholarship, primarily in the cross-cultural study of culture (e.g. sociology, anthropology, religious studies), for more than a century. To put it simply, these basic factors that allow Ron to define and recognize a story as a cross-cultural human universal phenomenon are not present in every case, or indeed perhaps in most. What Ron (and most others not involved in the study of culture, to be fair) takes to be universal is solidly proven not to be so. "Story" in the sense he means it is not, of course, an entirely modern, Western phenomenon; it has parallels in many other cultures and times. But it is not universal, or anything like.

(That's the end of the actual content material here; the rest is analysis of where Ron's argument should actually have led.)

So this whole argument, from my point of view, falls into what Ron likes to call "undergraduate debate." That's exactly what this is: you have a guy who thinks a lot of himself pronouncing glibly on story and brain and whatnot, but who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about in terms of the most basic first principles. If we take his argument seriously, we have to say that many of the cultures of South America, for example, are intrinsically brain-damaged, and not because they played WW games. Of course, from their point of view most of our stories aren't stories, or at the very least aren't any good as stories, for lots of reasons that don't even enter Ron's sphere of definition. The criteria are simply not as straightforward as he thinks, and they do in fact vary.

I suppose this makes me one of those postmodern purveyors of "arrant garbage." Well, so long as "postmodern" dates back to the mid-late 19th century, and so long as pretty much every piece of responsible scholarship on myth, ritual, religion, and culture is accepted as "arrant garbage," yeah, I guess I'll accept that. But it's a sad state of affairs when people take such a claim seriously because the guy touting it is a biologist, for Pete's sake.

Stripped to essentials, the argument is this:
  1. Here is a definition of Story
  2. Some games that claim to emphasize story do not follow this definition
  3. Some gamers who have played the games in question appear to have trouble shifting definitions
  4. Such gamers have been very strongly trained to think about story based on definitions other than the one posed
  5. In some cases, they may actually be unable to change definitions
  6. For this reason, they may well not "get" Story Now games
  7. That's sad
Oh. And? If it weren't for the inflammatory rhetoric and the fact that it's Ron saying this, why would anyone respond? What's to respond to? It's a statement of opinion: Ron thinks this is sad. He calls it brain damage, for whatever weird reason, but what he's talking about is enculturation and training. He thinks that some games, notably WW games, train people to think about stories in a way he doesn't think is helpful, and that (1) makes their games suck and (2) keeps them from playing games that tell stories in a way he does think is helpful.

From this there are two basic responses worth making. On point (1), there are people whose games don't suck, for whom the whole argument is laughable. And for those whose games do suck, the question is simply how to re-train them so they will "get" games like Sorcerer. So we've stripped down to essentials:
There is a group, of unknown size, of gamers who fit the following criteria:
  1. They have played a bunch of WW-type games
  2. They think their games suck
  3. They think they want storytelling
  4. They have trouble with games like Sorcerer
  5. The reason for this trouble is that they think about "story" in a WW-type way
Therefore
We need a training regimen to help these people rethink story and play
Okay. So write a new introduction to Sorcerer entitled "surviving 'storytelling' play," in which you explain how "story" here means something different, and how that means play is going to be different, and how and why you think this will be more satisfactory than WW has been. The assumption is that those people who actually like WW games won't be reading it because they don't have any reason to do so. You have some GM who's trying to help these unhappy players, and that GM encourages them to read this intro before designing a character or starting to play.

Has Ron actually written such a thing? Why not?



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[info]bluegargantua
2007-03-31 05:07 pm UTC (link)

Are there any readily-available examples from another culture of a "story" that's not a story the way we think of them? I'm having a bit of trouble imagining what that would look like (unsurprisingly).

I seem to recall that in the article one of his main beefs was that people could relate to him what happened in a story but not what the story was *about*. It was all "A then B then C" and not "all of these events really meant X". And I'll allow that some people may simply be wired to see a narrative in more concrete rather than abstract terms -- but I don't think I'd call it brain damage. I'd also argue that most RPGs, true to their wargamming roots, are more interested in A, B, and C and only use X as sort of a thin veneer over the top. There's no deeper question as to why I'm slaying the orc -- he's evil, he's got stuff I want, and it's my go on the Initiative count. Some stories have a deeper meaning, some stories don't and if I prefer one over the other it's not a horrible deficiency on my part.

later
Tom

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[info]urbeatle
2007-03-31 07:21 pm UTC (link)
I seem to recall that in the article one of his main beefs was that people could relate to him what happened in a story but not what the story was *about*. It was all "A then B then C" and not "all of these events really meant X". And I'll allow that some people may simply be wired to see a narrative in more concrete rather than abstract terms -- but I don't think I'd call it brain damage.

Yes, Ron's examples of the "damage" he was complaining about focused mainly on this. He listed a couple other things -- behavioral problems -- but didn't bother to explain why he thought they had anything to do with each other. Since mental health professionals do consider an inability to think abstractly or comprehend why B follows A as a sign of something wrong, I took that to be what Ron's post was really about. Which makes his argument seem a little ridiculous, since, given all the hullabaloo about RPGs encouraging Satanism or escapist thinking, you would think that any verifiable link between RPGs and a symptom commonly associated with schizophrenia and autism would have stirred up some controversy.

Which is why my response to him was that maybe he was seeing more "brain-damaged" people among the WW crowd than among story gamers because people who had problems thinking of story the way he defined it preferred WW to story games.

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-01 04:09 am UTC (link)
An excellent question. I will transcribe an example or two when I get back to my office (where my relevant books are).

What I think you will see is that it's not really a question of whether these things are or are not stories as such. Sure they are. But they don't look a lot like the stories we tell, or (more to the point) the stories we tend to think of as coherent or good stories. There are wildly different aesthetic and logical principles at work.

The result is that when we compare a large number of such "stories" we do have a kind of family resemblance -- we can certainly call all these things "stories" and have some sense roughly why we did so -- but as soon as we try to be more specific it all starts to break down. That's where the analytical weirdness comes in.

So let me put it like this. If "story" is a large enough category that we can fully accept all these native myths, and even accept them as good stories (as they do), then that category is more than large enough to contain the results of a WW game. If "story" is contracted such that what happens in a WW game is not part of it, which is required for Ron's argument, then a great deal of tribal mythology goes out the window as well.

Anyway, I'll post an example or two in a few days.

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[info]mrteapot
2007-03-31 05:56 pm UTC (link)
"If it weren't for the inflammatory rhetoric and the fact that it's Ron saying this, why would anyone respond?"

That's my question every time anyone acts like Ron has something relevant to say. So far, I've found no answer that makes me want to listen to Ron.

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[info]greyorm
2007-03-31 08:13 pm UTC (link)
What I took away from Ron's post was something I've seen and been aggravated with for years, and confirmed both by experience and other writing teachers/editors I have spoken with over the years: gamers, in general, make bad fiction writers and require significant retraining (or untraining) -- because they carry around a set of assumptions about what makes a story and use those as a premise to write from, producing very bad fiction.

Notably, the pattern of assumptions/techniques in question are specific to gamers as a group; that is, you might see one or two of them pop up here and there in the general writing population, but the pattern is specific to gamers.

So, for me, based on my experience, Ron was spot-on with his critique about certain traditional forms of gaming causing brain damage/enculturation/whateveryouchoosetocallit regarding the ability to create and tell stories, and even learning how to do so.

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[info]urbeatle
2007-03-31 10:38 pm UTC (link)
See, my response to this (as it was then,) is: how many of these gamers who write bad fiction were good fiction writers prior to gaming? You can't prove that gaming causes brain damage unless you can show the absence of damage prior to gaming.

I argue the opposite of Ron. I think the "damage" existed to begin with. What gaming does to these bad writers is convince them that they can write, making them more obvious than bad writers who never try to write. Ron is looking at all the trees along the roadway and coming to the conclusion that asphalt produces trees, instead of considering that maybe he's driving through a forest.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-01 12:48 am UTC (link)
The evidence exists in the comparison with the general population: gamers, as a general group, have a pattern of assumptions/techniques that hinder their ability to write well and to learn to write well (by which I mean there is a level of untraining involved in the process not needed for those without gaming backgrounds) that can be traced back to gaming, and which the general population does not exhibit or share.

Because I have that large, general base group to compare against -- note: both good and bad novice writers who don't game -- I don't need to prove the absence of "damage" (or as Chris puts it, "enculturation" (the effects of), which is more technically accurate anyways) prior to gaming.

If this were caused by something other than gaming, then these patterns would also occur in non-gamer bad writers, and would also only occur in bad writers. They don't.

To be absolutely clear: as a general rule, both good and bad writers who were or are gamers display this particular pattern of assumptions and techniques. It isn't just something you see in bad writers who are gamers, or something displayed by any bad writer; it is particular and specific to gamers as a general group, regardless of (eventual or existing) proficiency and talent.

To prove your point, and disprove mine, you are going to have to make the argument that people who have done screen-writing for the last ten-to-twenty years and then try prose were just born with their specific writing patterns, rather than enculturated to them by a decade or more of use, and that only failed/bad screen-writers are attracted to writing prose.

Obviously, that's nonsense. What I argue about gaming affecting writing habits is just the same thing: you have to untrain screenwriters from using specific and particular-to-their-group writing-habits and thought-patterns, just like you have to untrain gamers from the same specific to their group.

(I also note your counter-argument could easily be viewed in a light hardly better than Ron's argument: "Gamers are attracted to the activity because there is something wrong with them to start with and choose gaming because of their mutual disability."

But since Ron didn't say it, the gaming corner of the internet won't collectively shit itself while trying to paint you as the evilest evil that ever oozed out from under its gaming rock. You luck out. Gain +1 to teh intarwebs skillz!)

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[info]urbeatle
2007-04-01 01:58 am UTC (link)
Let's clarify something first. Are you talking about bad writing style? Because that sure doesn't fit the example Ron gave. I'd like to see a list of these assumptionons/techniques thata re common to gamers and uncommon among non-gamers, but if they're purely about style, I don't think they're relevant. Ron's example clearly specified an inability to understand or retell a good story and seems to be suggesting one or more of the following:
  • difficulty in abstracting meaning (concrete thinking,)
  • difficulty in abstracting causes (following a plot,)
  • difficulty in recognizing emotional tone (empathy.)

These are things psychiatrists and psychologists actually test for, and can be the result of brain damage or resemble it. Focusing on these, I can interpret Ron's cry of "Brain Damage!" as possible hyperbole and move on to whether I agree with his conclusions. If he wasn't talking about these, I don't see how anyone could even carry on the discussion. We're not clear what is being discussed.

Does a large body of non-gamers without the same symptoms prove that gaming causes the symptoms? Hell, no. At best, it would indicate a need for study, especially if there were no gamers without the symptoms and no non-gamers with the symptoms. To me, saying "gaming causes this dysfunction" means you've observed a change in people after they started to game. If not by direct observation, by comparing something they'd written prior to becoming a gamer and looking for signs of a loss of abstraction or empathy. Which, incidentally, is why your screenwriter analogy doesn't wash; plenty of screenwriters have samples of their pre-screenwriting work, even if it's nothing more than gradeschool homework or an essay submitted with their college application, so we know their writing style changed. Where's the equivalent proof for gaming?

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-01 03:10 am UTC (link)
What you see Ron's argument saying is not what I saw Ron's argument saying. See above. But I'm really so tired of everyone and their mother deciding "What Ron really said..." given the ridiculous lengths some folks go to regarding what Ron (or whomever; ref: see American politics) "really meant" when he said. Especially when it is for the most part really transparent social-politics.

So, flatly: I'm not Ron, I don't know what he was thinking specifically. You can talk to him about the pscyhology/brain damage stuff if you want to discuss that aspect of it. Not being psychic and not incredibly interested in politically-motivated discussions, I'm talking about what I'm talking about.

The statement I was making: gaming, like any activity, conditions its practioners to see and think about the world in particular ways, changing the way the person interacts with aspects of the world.

Do you disagree with that statement?

If so, why is gaming exempt given we have similar observed and well-documented situations that causes generally similar effects: where conditioning causes changes in perception, forms subconscious assumptions, and creates thought patterns in a subject? And how then do you explain the gamer-effect among novice writers?

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[info]urbeatle
2007-04-01 03:30 am UTC (link)
If we're not talking about what Ron was talking about, then I can't answer your questions at all, because at least Ron provided an example. What are *you* talking about? Are you talking about stylistic assumptions and techniques, or something else? And what are the percentages for people displaying those behaviors among gamers and non-gamers?

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-01 05:52 am UTC (link)
I'm talking about exactly what I said I was talking about in the first post; bit strange that you'd pick this point in the conversation to notice the divergence, but alright.

I'm not talking about style, whatever that means this week (that is, I'd just like to avoid the word as too generally meaningless); I'm talking about techniques and assumptions, such as those which go into the inclusion and exclusion of particular data in a story, and the manner of and reason for presentation of said data.

To be clear, the writing assumptions/techniques of an untrained or novice writer-gamer are not uncommon among novice (non-gamer) writers in and of themselves, but the pattern of their use and the specific ones the novice writer-gamer chooses are. They are specific to the hobby of gaming, which is why they pop out, even to someone who doesn't game.

The reason it pops is that it is like a person who plays video games writing stories based on the way video games play out, or (to beat a dead horse) the way a long-time screenwriter writes prose (when a novice) pops out as being prose written by a screenwriter.

For gamers, these are things like: passive description, front-loading character descriptions including details of equipment, encyclopedia-worthy passages on minor (colorful) setting details, failing to write character personality and letting the story be about "the plot", or ignoring character personality in favor of "the plot", the plot itself having no real tie to the character, events being about plot rather than character (ie: characters exist mainly as eyewitnesses to stuff happening that doesn't or shouldn't reasonably need to involve or interest or engage them), identifiable game-character archetypes (at best "with serial numbers filed off"), other similar game-related artifacts, excessive but unimportant inter-party drama (and you'll note the concept of a "party") usually via dialogue, lengthy historical treatises on irrelevancies, extensive viewpoint jumping, sudden changes in voice, failing to connect the reader to the character (or failing to connect to the character as a writer), creating pseudo-mystery instead of tension, extensive detail of each move in and focus on combat scenes, loosely-/un-related spastic action and events (ie: "wouldn't it be cool if..." writing that pays no attention to engaging the reader in the long term, or over a period of time), etc. etc.

cont...

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-01 05:52 am UTC (link)
cont.. from above

I know that's a mess, sorry. Hopefully you get the idea: you'll note these are all things you can find specifically as a part of play/assumptions of what play is (or should be) like in much traditional gaming. They are all things the gamer has been trained to do by gaming, and which make for bad writing technique and a bad base of "shoulds" to try to know what to write from and how to write it.

Again, yes, other novice writers do many/all of the above, too -- the difference is novice writer-gamers do them as a package deal. Hrm, no. Better stated (because not all of the above may be utilized), they write using an identifiable pattern. The short (inaccurate-but-useful) description is "They write D&D" or "They write a wordy, fantasized version of a role-playing session".

Now, gaming fiction can be done well, but it involves unlearning a lot of gaming assumptions about what is told and how it is told. It also involves having a decent story to begin with, something a lot of novice writer-gamers struggle with in a very interesting manner.

It isn't that they are stumped what to do, it is that they have adventure plots that are good, fundamentally, but in practice really don't do anything, or require so much pointless slogging around to get anywhere of interest that you want to cry...or you would if you hadn't put it down fifty pages ago. Like a lot of gaming. They'll push stories hoping the characters will blunder into the magic space that makes the story finally happen instead of trying to rework the characters or the plot to fit one another. They fail to connect the characters to the plot in a reasonable and compelling way, and the idea suffers in its execution due to the game-related assumptions the writer is trying to drive with.

But now I am starting to get into specifics, and I'm not yet ready to write the book (or essay) on it. I also don't have specific percentages. This is a bunch of editors and writing teachers exchanging informative anecdotes and similar observations over the course of years, not a laboratory study with clipboards and spreadsheets. But that has worked for us just fine for years in exchanging teaching techniques and typing students so we can deal with their specific problems more successfully.

Hopefully, however, all that answers your questions regarding the subject I'm discussing?

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[info]urbeatle
2007-04-02 06:21 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for providing that, Raven.

As I said, I don't think style issues are really relevant, because it kind of blows the whole argument, or at least its tone of Great Danger Caused By Gaming. If you're talking about style, you're talking about one group judging another by its own guidelines. Now, I happen to agree that the stylistic elements you list are dangerous to effective stories and prefer stories that do the opposite. However, I've read enough older stuff to know that your aesthetics (and mine) weren't always the case. Except for three specific things you mentioned, the stylistic flaws as a package occur in enormous numbers of older stories. Some of those flaws, like front-loaded equipment descriptions and cataloging irrelevant scene details, were once the norm rather than the exception (I'm thinking of practically every Arthurian romance, especially Gawain and the Green Knight. It was common enough that Chaucer parodied it in "Sir Thopas".)

There are three specific style elements you mentioned that I think can rightly be blamed on gaming: focus on game-related archetypes, artifacts, and the "adventure party". There are possible antecedents for all three outside of gaming, but I can see that you would expect this more from gamers than non-gamers. But I'm not convinced that this is a huge problem. I don't think there are that many bad gamer writers writing thinly-disguised dungeon crawls outside of game-related publications, so I mainly think of this as being a symptom of something else: writers who are unable to stray too far from whatever it is they are emulating. I think *this* occurs outside of gaming, too, in a different form, and it's just more obvious when they are emulating gaming instead of some other entertainment obsession. And I don't think this is really common.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-02 08:40 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome, Tal.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment: I don't know if I would consider "the Great Danger" any less, if I were making the point Ron is, since we would be talking about damaging a point of collective contact in our modern culture (ie: the concept of "story" and how it works).

Imagine if a group of people in our culture were raised to not simply reject modern concepts of property rights, but to not even be able to think about them as a thing?

That would be damaging to the social fabric, and to those individuals in their efforts to exist in our society, and quite possibly damaging to anyone they come in contact with. Particularly given the inability of the groups to even find a place to meet or understand one another on the issue.

So I could see speaking up about it as a Great Danger. Like importing a bunch of ancient Greeks into the middle of downtown Atlanta.

The problem would be the one Thomas Kuhn pointed out: trying to give Newton a copy of Dirac's work on quantum physics would result in nothing, as Newton would simply be unable to see what he was getting at due to the 'incommensurability of paradigms', excepting that this would be regarding social paradigms rather than scientific.

Ok, I'm done playing DA, as it is completely aside from the point I've been advancing.

Instead, I'm interested in the idea that the pattern I discussed occurs in older literature: I've read the Arthurian romances, and I'm not sure I see the same pattern of what I've identified as game-influence you have in them. Bits and pieces, yes, but not the same underlying thing.

Heck, I can point to Tolkien for some of the stuff in the list I gave, but I don't consider it to be the same thing I see as coming from novice writer-gamers, because the execution -- the underlying assumptions the author appears to be writing from -- "feel" very different.

But as for novice writers not straying too far from what they are emulating, I agree completely. If I'm not misunderstanding you, it's basically the "long-time screenwriter" problem: you write what you know as you know it.

I would only argue in addition that gaming has this effect on the understanding of story -- because gaming is or purports to be about story -- that few others things in our culture do, so the result is more pronounced with it.

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[info]eyebeams
2007-04-05 06:12 am UTC (link)
The evidence exists in the comparison with the general population: gamers, as a general group, have a pattern of assumptions/techniques that hinder their ability to write well and to learn to write well (by which I mean there is a level of untraining involved in the process not needed for those without gaming backgrounds) that can be traced back to gaming, and which the general population does not exhibit or share.

Nobody has any information worthy of respect about what gamers are like outside of demographic consumer data. Some people have merely privileged anecdotal information in a blatantly self-serving fashion. You do not have a large group for comparison to which you have applied any form of methodical evaluation, so your claims of evidence are, at best naive, and at worst self-servingly dishonest.

I do admit that this, along with your balls out demand that people prove a negative, are notable for being rather bold in their fearless lack of intellectual scruples. But the truth is that you really do need to prove an effect, rather than simply say it exists and defy others to prove otherwise. This could be obtained by coming up with some sort of bullshit story-skill criteria and putting folks through it. This would get you halfway there, until the bullshit criteria became a problem. The alternate route lies with compelling case studies, in which case you have to explain away the very large number of successful authors who used to play RPGs you don't approve of.

Ron's argument is a straightforward evolutionary psychology just-so story. That, at least is a coherent argument, though the lack of proof chiefly makes it an ideological bulwark. Of course, the mating of evolutionary psychology and neural Darwinism creates some extremely stupid side effects that I will explain elsewhere.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-05 09:03 am UTC (link)
You might want to take the time to carefully read something over and think about the details presented before getting all het-up and explode your head all over someone's LJ in an otherwise polite discussion you either haven't read thoroughly or haven't grasped the actualities of.

I say that because you argue a major flaw in my reasoning is that "...you have to explain away the very large number of successful authors who used to play RPGs you don't approve of", as though I did not do so or that such was not considered or taken into account.

As you'll see if you reread the statements made, the argument already accounts for proficient writer-gamers who don't display (or never displayed) the particular pattern discussed, via use of the group identifier NOVICE writer-gamers (not ALL writer-gamers) and in the use of the statement AS A GENERAL GROUP (not ALL GAMERS).

Those are very important details you have glossed over in writing up your personal attack critque, resulting in your having attempted to discredit a non-existant assertion, and to discuss an idea completely outside of any I have put forward (as well as one I agree would be thoughtlessly and uselessly generalized).

There is also the claim on your part that my idea has something to do with "RPGs I don't approve of." I don't know what RPGs those might be, as I never stated that I disapproved of any specific RPGs, or indicated the merits of such were nonexistant. Again, you are arguing against an assertion and attendant ideas that do not exist in the argument presented here, except by your own inference and desire.

I have a suspicion your reaction has nothing to do with the idea presented, however, given these above strawmen. From my outside perspective, the content of your arguments and choice of responses seems to indicate more simply unleashing verbal and emotional bile in public, perhaps as a defense of some sort of personal "holy ground" (or so to speak) you feel has been violated by a suggestion there could be a potential "negative" associated with gaming.

(If one were going to be snarky, one might even argue your interpretation and choice of readings was "self-servingly dishonest" and such behavior was "lacking in intellectual scruples", but then we're just name-calling and pretending it has any real intellectual merit or nets productive communication in a discussion.)

Regardless of the source, if it makes you feel better to ignore pertinent details and insert strawmen so you can rage against what you think you see -- and flame like you're about to be banned from RPG.net -- please do it somewhere not around me.

I am simply not interested in watching anyone defend emotional territory, or in discussion or communication based on knee-jerk reactions to uncarefully read material, or in being trolled as you have chosen to do here, and I will not have any further time to respond to that sort of behavior. (I also doubt Chris cares for such in his journal.)

Thanks.

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[info]eyebeams
2007-04-06 02:10 am UTC (link)
I treat you like a shitheel because in all of our exchanges, you have behaved like a shitheel. You have even acted like a shitheel towards me when I haven't even been around, like when you called me a sociopath over at Fang Langford's and expressed horror at the thought I might participate in a community he was only *thinking* of forming.

You have behaved like a shitheel to such an extent that other Forge folks have apologized for your shitheeltastic participation. I suppose my main mistake was interfering when you were determined to be a shitheel to someone else, as well.

See the difference between you and Ron is that when I do interact with him directly, he is formally polite -- such as on the occasion when he apologized for you being a shitheel over on the Forge. You don't seem to be able to extend courtesy to anyone you disagree with and thus, you choose my response.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-06 04:52 am UTC (link)
I was not aware I was insulting someone I disagreed with here. Who, specifically? Chris? Tal? Did you feel attacked? Was I a "shitheel"? If I was, let me know.

If I am never be polite to someone I disagree with, I'm not sure how I explain my response to you above, then, or this thread.

I will agree that you and I don't much like each other based on our history and mutually negative view of one another, but when you come in here with guns blazing invective, purportedly in order to defend someone from my vicious and discourteous responses, you might want to think how poorly that reflects on you and how much of your statement above applies to yourself as well.

And no, I absolutely do not take responsibility for your choice of behavior: I don't choose your response for you, you do. Especially when your own behavior has resulted in you being banned from places it used to be pretty hard to get banned from -- I just wouldn't go around throwing stones while living in that glass house.

Ultimately, if you have a problem with me personally, take it to e-mail. I'm perfectly willing to either work it out or curse and swear at one another some more (well, no, not really the latter one).

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-06 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Everyone cool it, okay? If you must do this, do it in email or something, as Raven suggests. Eyebeams says he's done with the conversation, so I hope this is the end of it.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-06 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Sorry. I replied via the e-mail notice on the comment, so I didn't see your note below.

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-05 12:58 pm UTC (link)
Can we cool it on the rhetoric a bit? I'd like to keep attacks and arguments focused on claims and arguments, rather than on people, where possible.

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[info]eyebeams
2007-04-06 02:11 am UTC (link)
S'Okay. I'm done talking to him.

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-01 03:55 am UTC (link)
Responding to Raven and Talysman [is that right?]:

I understand Ron to have said something like the following:

1. A lot of gamers with particular gaming training seem to have trouble with proper stories.
2. I (Ron) think this is a causal link.

I have two basic objections. The first was made repeatedly on the Forge thread, so I'll just mention it here:

A. This evidence is entirely anecdotal. I'm sorry, but "I've played with lots of people and..." or "I've both played with and taught lots of folks and..." is not legitimate evidence.

The thing is, because nobody has done or will do a study of A under proper conditions, the point remains entirely a matter of opinion. I see no point in discussing it.

My feeling is that it's probably true, given a specific definition of "story." If you define "story" in a particular fashion, and you expect that "story" of this kind can and should be produced by specific means (particular types of games such as Sorcerer), then yes, I would guess it's probably true that people who've been playing "storytelling" games of the WW kind may well have difficulty making the transition.

But my objection is:

B. This is an extremely problematic definition of "story," and it presumes from the outset that the procedures in question are a proper and fully-described method of producing "story."

I won't argue the latter; it's not worth it. But the former remains.

Raven has produced quite a different -- and I think more honest -- definition of "story." "Story" is what you produce if you are a good fiction writer. Setting aside the point that not all good fiction has anything to do with a story, I think Raven hits the nail on the head. But it is worth considering that "fiction" of the kind that one evaluates in these terms, i.e. "he is/isn't a good writer of fictional prose" is extremely culturally specific. Ron's notion that anyone who says this is spewing "arrant garbage" of the postmodern kind is simply a demonstration of flat ignorance. This is a well-known issue, and has been so for more than a century. Without this issue, there would be no scholarship on myth, because it all begins by trying to deal with this problem.

In essence, I am saying that a great deal of "story" across the ages, such as that produced as "myth" by nonliterate tribal peoples, does not as a rule conform to the same structures as does modern Western fictional prose. If an inability to understand and produce modern Western fictional prose is proof of brain-damage, then most non-literate tribal peoples have historically been brain-damaged. I don't buy this.

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-01 04:00 am UTC (link)
Furthermore, the whole thing strikes me as weirdly backwards. In essence, Ron is claiming that Narrativist (I now refuse to call them Story Now, because apparently Story means something silly) games do nothing significant; he thinks they tap into the story circuits in our brains.

Bullshit.

Narrative in any form is an encultured behavior, and it is exceedingly complex in most if not all cultures. WW games may well enculture some sort of narration behavior. But to say that this narration behavior is not legitimate story because it does not match Sorcerer is to define Sorcerer as a passably ideal measure of narration and story pan-culturally. I see nothing whatsoever to justify such a claim other than the wildest egotism.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-01 06:30 am UTC (link)
Thanks, Chris.

Hrm. Not to speak for Ron, but I'm betting he'd agree with you that he expressed his intent poorly. Or possibly not. I've known him to vehemently claim a thing at one period of time and mean it full-bore, and openly admit later on that he has come to believe his earlier claim was junk, due to more thought on the issue and/or based on discussion of his usually boldly-stated views.

Don't know which way he's leaning on this one, but I agree with you that Narrativism is a specific type of story, and is not the Platonic form of Story. We all know that Narrativism is based on Egri's work, and Egri deals with a specific type of generally quite Western storytelling format and set of guidelines that it defines as "Story" for its purposes.

Coming from that stance, I didn't see much wrong with Ron's argument, as the above assumption of the territory the statement actually covered made it non-problematic (Egri-story). Abandoning that, and viewing it from the perspective of a statement about all Story, I can easily see where it would fall apart and be nonsensical.

{ And hell, don't let the 'arrant garbage of postmodernism' statement get into your craw. Ron is a strongly opinionated person on various subjects, that doesn't mean he's judging you specifically, even if it feels like he is.

Anecodte: Years ago, Ron made a strong, derogatory statement regarding the utility and future of artificial intelligence, a subject which I was (and am) quite interested in. Though I refrained from doing so, I wanted to fight with him and be angry with him about it for quite a while, until I realized: it's his opinion, strongly stated. What does that have to do with me, at all?

Everyone has opinons about things, why would someone's opinion of those things reflect on me? They don't unless I let them (via a social self-identity issue). If I tell him I think AI is useful and give examples of its progress, does that mean I'm calling him a stupid, anti-progress bonehead for holding his viewpoint?

No. We're both mature enough to hold wildly divergent and opposed opinions without thinking the other guy's a jerk, or thinking he thinks we're a jerk for thinking otherwise. Ron's opinion statements are quite possibly the Midwestern, "Man, that is stupid and you're wasting your life on garbage, now let's go get those beers," attitude in action. Or more possibly the product of years of academic debate: make and support a solid claim, wait to be proven wrong. }

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-01 02:34 pm UTC (link)
Raven,

Egotistical I may be, but I surely didn't think his remarks about postmodern arrant garbage were directed at me!

The thing is, the argument you're making strikes me as eminently plausible, but hardly a cause for any sort of hand-wringing. You're saying that certain sorts of games can, over time, train people to think of stories in a fashion that is neither decent fictional prose nor Egri-style narrative. This can in turn make such players have a lot of trouble with Narrativist gaming, whereas if they had not had this training they would not have had that trouble.

Okay. I think that's plausible. But so what? I come back to where I started. If this is a problem for Narrativist game designers, then it's worth thinking about how to write your game such that it actively strives to un-train or re-train such players.

What I don't understand is why such initial training should be seen as a bad thing. Different, perhaps, and oriented in directions that are at odds with Narrativist gaming, but bad? Why? The hyperbole of "brain damage" seems to me to suggest pretty strongly that Ron thinks it's really a very bad thing, but it looks to me like a question of preferences.

I always thought the point of the GNS/Big Model thing was that you should choose games that are oriented toward your preferences, and designers should know what the main preference-types are so they can design efficiently toward them. Now it appears that preferences other than Narrativism are intrinsically a bad thing. People said for years that the GNS/Big Model was all about why Nar was the best, and I always said that this was simply a problem in formulation and development. Then the theory forums closed and formulation and development stopped with them; the Big Model was set in stone. Now it turns out that those critics were right all along: the Big Model is not open to development or formulation because deep down the right answer is Narrativism. This is not an analytical or descriptive model: it's prescriptive. Furthermore, any attempts to make it a descriptive model are wrong because what is prescribed is a re-training method to make people into Narrativists.

Ironically, this sort of move actually makes the Big Model more open, because now it is established that the model is not what it claims. Thus one can retool it to be analytical and descriptive without regard for Ron's preferences and wishes. Personally I don't know whether it's worth doing, because the model is so screwy in basic constitution, but at least a lot of gamers interested in theory would have a baseline comprehension (which would not be the case if you built anew on, for example, an anthropological or sociological foundation).

Anyway, I just found the whole thing interestingly bizarre.

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[info]losrpg
2007-04-01 04:47 pm UTC (link)
"The thing is, the argument you're making strikes me as eminently plausible, but hardly a cause for any sort of hand-wringing. "

Not to mention, judgemental hand-wringing. Amend that, judgemental, self-serving hand-wringing. At that point, IMO, the standard for evidence goes up just a wee bit.

The whole brouhaha around 'brain damage' simply clarified in my mind the already growing feeling that nothing said by either Ron Edwards or his apologists was worth taking seriously. As you say, it's all a bunch of complicated rationalizations for why their play style is better than the others, mixed with some really good technique advice for how to play in that style. At least Vincent Baker is honest and forthright about this. I think a lot of others on the internet have come to the same conclusions as I did. So I think that 'brain damage' did a lot to make The Forge irrelevant to internet RPG discourse.

Unfortunately, Story Games, which largely stepped in to fill the void, has a lot of forgey assumptions in the conversation there -- enough to make the place unacceptable to me as a venue. Levi's site Game Craft is where I tend to hang out most these days, but it hasn't really hit critical mass yet. TheRPGSite has some good discussion, but also some real serious drawbacks as a venue for good discussion.

Good to see you posting again, Chris, and I really enjoyed the recent series of articles.


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[info]greyorm
2007-04-01 06:19 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, Chris, I wasn't sure. It sounded like you might be twitching a bit at the assault on something you hold valid and useful; I wasn't certain you were, but I threw it in there on the chance. Honestly, that part would probably have made a better e-mail, but I wrote it at god-awful-something in the morning after a stressful day, so I wasn't thinking clearly.

then it's worth thinking about how to write your game such that it actively strives to un-train or re-train such players

100% agreement with you on that. Consider the number of times that folks have begged for a meatier, more example-laden "how do you do this thing" Sorcerer rewrite, and consider that Ron has responded every time that he isn't interested in doing so because he isn't interested in teaching people how to play differently. I understand his desire not to do so, but not his position of not doing so.

However, I think you're completely off-base regarding the closing of the theory forms, the hidden meaning of such, or the idea that the Big Model is really all about Nar, despite what Ron appears to be saying in the Brain Damage bit.

Ah, Damnit. I can't access the Forge right now to back this up with a quote, but I recall the "my way is best" accusation being raised in the thread, and Ron's response to it being along the lines of him noting the discussion was phrased to be about people who want to play Nar and can't because of their gaming history.

I also seem to recall that particular point repeatedly (and rather typically) being selectively "forgotten" by his critics, but that may be because such behavior has been par for the course (and one of the main reasons I don't pay much attention to Forge-critics and Ron-critics: blatant and on-going intellectual dishonesty is of little use to me).

Ok, finally reached the Forge and read through a couple pages of the posts. I'm thinking there are a number of distortions or glossing of subtle points Ron made or clarified later in your critique.

For example, my memory wasn't precisely correct about the above specific: I note Ron states he isn't talking about "any other gamer in the world" or "any non-Narrativist" or "non-Narrativist play", but only about a specific group of gamers involved in a specific game activity, and more specifically, gamers with a desire for a particular result and a methodology which promises that result and yet does not provide it.

That's not a blanket dismissal of non-Narrativist gaming in any way, and I'm a bit surprised you chose to take it as such.

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[info]losrpg
2007-04-01 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Previous comment deleted; this isn't the right place for that.

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-05 12:59 pm UTC (link)
Thanks. (I got the original -- nice self-policing!) I appreciate it.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-01 07:15 pm UTC (link)
Hrm, I should be clearer: above, I'm not suggesting you, Chris, are intellectually dishonest.

Also, after some thought, I've realized I'm really interested right now in the area where you and Ron disagree so strongly. What you call his false premise:
I am completely unconvinced by the suggestion that what we call a "story" today is a local historical artifact, or that people in past epochs or in different cultures had or have utterly different fundamentals for stories.

...as far as I can tell, there is no meaningful "cultural gap" regarding stories. Differences in content and presentation which seem jarring at first contact are swiftly overcome with further contact. This is common. People refuse to do this, when they do, not because the foreign story makes no sense, but because they are invested in not paying attention for any number of reasons.


I'd really like to see your support for why Ron is wrong about his claim. I admit, your position is something I've heard expressed here and there but never concretely shown (to me), and I'd love to see examples of stories that don't fit into my cultural or perceptual paradigms, or Ron's criteria of "a fictional series of events which present a conflict and a resolution, with the emergent/resulting audience experience of 'theme'".

I know you stated you would provide an example in a few days as a response above, but is there anywhere you could point me currently, or cultures you suggest I reference in the meantime?

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-02 02:51 am UTC (link)
Yeah, sorry, got a little carried away. Let me clarify.

If we exclude Gamist and Simulationist play for a minute, as Ron does, we have Narrativism. Then we say that WW games screw people up: they are unable to really get Nar because their ability to handle stories is screwed up. This is more or less the opening of Ron's essay, right?

Okay, but there is an elision here. We have now said, not that Nar is best understood as a Story Now approach, but as the approach that produces stories. If you cannot get it, it's because you aren't interested in stories (and are more in the Gamist or Simulationist preferences) or you are interested in stories but are screwed up about them (because you've been playing WW games).

In order for this to be true, GNS/Big Model must be a full descriptive account of all possible functional play: we must be able to classify all such play in one of the three categories. Furthermore, the Model must require that each category have essentially sole possession of its core principle, which in the Nar case is Story. With that in hand, we can look at a game, find that it emphasizes Story, and immediately slot it into the Nar camp -- only to find that it is, in the WW case, non-functional Nar. Now we ask why it is non-functional, and we find it is because they are screwed up about Story. Thus brain damage, etc. Right?

But this means that the Model must not only classify all functional play but also all possible forms of non-functional play. That seems unlikely, to say the least, and so far as I know hasn't been claimed. Furthermore, it requires that all non-functional play be grounded in one of three absolutely discrete terms, one being Story.

The only way I can see this making sense is if the Model doesn't work that way at all. By my reading, the Model claims to describe all functional play; any play that does not fit the model is by definition non-functional, and the question becomes how it could be tweaked or corrected to make it functional. With WW dysfunctional play, Ron thinks, the basic problem is quite drastic: this is Story Now without Story. But at that point the model has indeed become prescriptive, not descriptive.

I have said at many points over the years that this was a serious danger, because if the model went entirely prescriptive it would be of little value except to the converted. This was commonly derided, on fairly simple grounds: the only way to talk about gaming is practically, because it's all about making games. I don't agree, of course, for the same reason as I think it's best when analyzing religion not to tell people what they ought to believe, but even beyond this a model of this type tends to become a closed circle. What happens is that innovation at some point starts to push at the edge of the model, and if the model is prescriptive that pushing is interpreted diagnostically: it is a disease. The innovation now moves out, the model breathes a sigh of relief, and those who didn't buy it in the first place hold up the innovations as examples of the dogmatism of the model believers. I always felt that the Forge remained healthy as far as this sort of issue precisely because it allowed a rather incoherent core discourse about theory that had nothing whatever to do with the Big Model, sometimes challenging it, sometimes doing its own thing entirely. And when this closed down, I predicted that we'd end up with a closed circle in short order. What I see with this Brain Damage thing is evidence of the closed circle: Ron now defines his form of Story gaming as health and other forms as sickness, and there is no acceptance of the possibility that there might be other healthy forms.

Anyway, enough. I didn't really mean to re-open this can of worms; I was mostly interested in the strange presuppositions about stories.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-02 04:47 am UTC (link)
I'm going to take some time to digest that, because I see your point; however, I'm not certain I agree with all of it, and if I do end up disagreeing I want to have a clear concept why (clarification: when you say "Ron defines...", at the end you mean "other healthy forms of Story", correct?). Thank you for the breakdown, though.

(And thanks for the pointer to the stories in the other post!)

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[info]urbeatle
2007-04-02 05:59 pm UTC (link)
I agree that Raven's definition of story is different and probably more honest, although perhaps not relevant, since it seems to depend on the way western writers post-1950 think of story. As you say, that leaves out a lot of stories from nonliterate peoples, as well as a great deal of classical literature and even American pulp literature from the first part of the 20th century. And even a few later examples come to mind: I've been listening to the "Space Patrol" radio series from the '50s, and many of the same errors crop up there. Whether that marks them as irredeemably bad or merely flawed can be debated elsewhere, but the point is: can you seriously blame a common pattern appearing throughout literary and dramatic history on games from the 1970s through the 1990s?

I focused on Raven's comments earlier, because I pretty much agree with your main point. However, I do want to emphasize that Ron made a claim -- that I don't buy, myself -- that gamers not only can't produce a good story, but can't recognize a story. This is why I think of his claim as being clinical rather than aesthetic.

Your criticism is pretty good, too, though.

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[info]pete_darby
2007-04-01 05:38 pm UTC (link)
There's another way to look at it: Ron's understanding of story has been fundamentally damaged by exposure to Egri, to about the same extent as WW style "storytelling" damaged his stereotyped WW player.

I *know* mine has by exposure to Keith Johnstone, but hey.

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[info]badgerbag
2007-04-02 05:11 am UTC (link)

It's very sweet that the part that really pisses you off is that he's dismissing people's teachability, so you respond by wanting to teach him (a person we might ourselves dismiss as unteachable) how to teach the people he thinks are unteachably story-damaged. Awwwwwww!





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[info]greyorm
2007-04-02 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Huh? Who said anything about unteachably story-damaged?

Quotes: "Some of them, presented with alternative...procedures, say "oh!", extract the damaging material, and move on..." and "...nowhere above did I say irreparable brain damage."

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[info]jeregenest
2007-04-02 01:07 pm UTC (link)
I'm just amazed that this arguement still can get a decent bit of virtriole forming in folks.

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-05 01:02 pm UTC (link)
Surprised me, too. It's been almost a year, if memory serves. I was mostly interested in the story part; the sociobiology part strikes me as quite obviously ludicrous, so as a matter of basic hermeneutic charity I decided it must be mostly hyperbolic. And it doesn't affect the claim one way or another, since the fundamental axioms about stories are demonstrably wrong.

I wonder why people care so much. Is it the "brain damage" thing? The sociobiology? The fact that it's Ron on a tear?

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[info]eyebeams
2007-04-05 06:31 am UTC (link)
People are exercising both too much and too little charity. Ron is not exercising hyperbole with his choice of the term brain damage. Ron is looking at story from these perspectives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_Darwinism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_Psychology

In brief: Ron believes that stories are specific products of minds evolved with storytelling capacity. The traditional story structure he believes in is not (according to him) a matter of culture, but how human beings have evolved to tell stories.

Ron also believes that this evolution occurs in a human lifetime through natural selection in neurodevelopment.

Therefore: If someone's neurodevelopment is altered in such a way that they do not reflexively tell stories according to the structure promoted by human evolution, they are, by his criteria, literally brain damaged; that is, their brains are not organized to support traditional storytelling.

Pretending that this is soft, subjective hyperbole doesn't do anybody favours. He's made it clear that he believes playing Vampire warps neurodevelopment in a specific way.

There are many problems, though:

1) Ron Edwards have yet to provide a shred of proof about the innateness of certain story structures and is probably unable to do so.

2) Ron Edwards does not actually present a moral argument about why a traditional story structure is desirable at all. He indulges in the naturalistic fallacy. From an evolutionary psychology perspective, this is pretty important, since one of the critiques EP responds to is that it can be combined with that fallacy to do things like justify rape.

3) Characterizing a type of neurodevelopment as "brain damage" because it selects something radically different from long-held antecedents has plenty of problems. First of all, it's a moral argument against adaptation, which has all kinds of problems. Secondly preference for continuity from past habits can be used to call all kinds of progressive things "brain damage." By Ron Edwards' standards, the ability to conceive female protagonists in a non-sexist fashion is also "brain damage," since it also represents a break from the bulk of human cultural tradition, which is, according to EP, an artifact of past evolution. In fact, all kinds of, nice progressive attitudes are "brain damage" and furthermore such criteria again point to a naturalistic fallacy by assuming that recent long term trends in neurodevelopment are superior to recent trends. This essentially indicts much of our behaviour as a form of damage.

4) Both EP and Neural Darwinism are unproven and EP is non-falsifiable. So even if we resolve the above, we still don't know whether or not any of it is worth bothering with.

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-05 12:57 pm UTC (link)
In brief: Ron believes that stories are specific products of minds evolved with storytelling capacity. The traditional story structure he believes in is not (according to him) a matter of culture, but how human beings have evolved to tell stories.

My feeling is that the socio-biology of the post is beside the point. It's an empty claim scientifically, because there is not and never will be sufficient data to establish it, and besides I am rather skeptical of this sort of perspective to begin with, as are you.

What I claim, however, is that human minds probably do all have a capacity for stories, but that "story" is a much wider and less readily-defined structure than many people -- including Ron -- think. Consequently it may well be true that humans have a story capacity, but this has nothing to do with whether they do or do not understand a particular type of storytelling. What I object to, in short, is the notion that all "good" stories have the same sorts of structures, and that therefore storytelling cultures all have some obvious continuity that can be discerned by playing Narrativist RPGs.

And if that isn't true -- and I submit that it isn't -- the whole rest of the claim breaks down to nothing.

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[info]eyebeams
2007-04-06 02:12 am UTC (link)
Well, let me be clear that I think his argument is coherent and worth respecting. There's considerable thinking behind it. I happen to think he's wrong, but that's because I don't think it leads where he wants it to lead, even if you accept the premises.

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[info]clehrich
2007-04-06 03:29 pm UTC (link)
I guess I should clarify on the whole EP and sociobiology thing.

To my mind, you're quite right that this stuff is unfalsifiable in the formal usage, to say nothing of Ron's unproven claims. But I'd go farther than unfasifiability.

Consider kinship structures, where the whole "selfish gene" thing plays out. Now it does look like the selfish gene principle operates, at least in the sense that every known stable kinship structure -- that is, every kinship structure that doesn't appear and collapse within just a few years or so -- respects this principle. So what we learn, at best, is that the principle is operative. But we learn nothing about human cultures and kinship structures, because every example respects it. All we have gained is a somewhat clearer formulation of a general limitation on kinship elaborations. But we have acquired no explanatory power with respect to actual kinship. There are thousands of different kinship systems, and if every one of them respects a general principle, we haven't gained any means to differentiate and thus explain such systems.

Furthermore, the one thing that is absolutely forbidden under the selfish gene principle is incest in the narrow sense. But we have many cultures in which incest is encouraged under certain circumstances, notably with kings, as in ancient Egypt during some periods. So it seems that even when there is a universal principle, culture trumps nature: a culture can decide, for its own reasons, to discard a natural principle.

So we have a universal principle that explains nothing, and that does not apply if a culture decides to discard it. Consequently we have nothing. Of course it's interesting in its way, but it really gains us no purchase on culture.

What I see with Ron's thing about stories is an elaboration of the same sort of muddle-headed positivistic thinking. Insofar as we can talk about a universal story-telling structure evolved in human minds, it is so general that it explains nothing. When it is narrowed to something definite, as with Ron, we end up having to discard large blocks of data on the ground that this is "arrant garbage," causing us to pretend that the data simply isn't there.

This, to my mind, is EP and sociobiology at their most typical. Invent a universal principle, and if it is universal and explains nothing pat yourself on the back, and if it is not universal discard any data that doesn't suit the theory. This is supposed to be science?

So in essence I don't think the argument is coherent or worth respecting, no matter how much thought went into it. Actually, I have respect for Ron, but I do wish he wouldn't run off like this, and the fact that he's a biologist by training makes me think he should be more cautious about such claims; otherwise the claim is taken as respectable because of the putative science standing behind it.

Anyway, just a clarification.

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[info]greyorm
2007-04-06 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Hrm. Chris, I think maybe what is happening here is that Ron is a biologist and you are an er, anthropologist(?). So your ways of understanding and processing the data from the world, especially the meaning of that data, are incredibly divergent.

Rather, you're like two different cultures looking at the same idea and seeing it completely differently from what its parent ideas are to what it ultimately says or means.

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